Geno Smith Thread

[BoKnows81]

[Attyla]

And saying that Flores did not build the team is a fallacy to a degree. It was Wolf who made a lot of the moves that brought the players to the table and Al did listen to Wolf. But it was Flores who tinkered the offense that brought in the higher powered level of the passing game. People need to remember that Davis did not want Allen, he had his eyes on another RB, I believe that was Abercrombie. Marcus was a Wolf target and since Davis was in court that day, he had the staff make the call. The second SB we won in the 80s is largely because Davis was in court and not in the building. The first one? That was because Davis's guy Pastorini got injured opening up the way for Plunkett to step in. And Plunkett was brought in on the recommendation of Madden. Flores took that recommendation to Davis. Plunkett was so beat up physically and mentally they sat him his first two years to heal him up. The rest is history.

Bottom line is, no one person ever built a Raiders roster back in the day. Even much later on when Davis was calling all the shot he did rely on a scouting dept and did get opinions from both players and coaches. As much of a control freak as he was, even he knew he could not do it all on his own. His problem was in thinking he could coach the team from his suite.

[The Real CK]

Tom Flores is in the Hall of Fame. Tony Dungy is in the Hall of Fame.

Gruden is a .500 head coach.

Gruden didn't get shit done in Tampa which is why he ended up in the announcers booth at ESPN.

Neither should be in the HOF, especially Flores, who turned into utter crap when he left the elite Raiders organization. Gruden, at least, won games at both stops.

Then again, I think the HOF is too easy on head coach access. They need higher standards.

He won a Super Bowl. As much as people want to discount it, he got it done. He beat Philly in weather that no Tampa team ever won in. Dungy couldn't beat Philly in the playoffs.

[The Real CK]

Gruden made one move of significance in Tampa, the trophy he has is actually because of Kiffin. Gruden just did not get in Kiffin's way.

Dungy gets as much credit for his trophy as Gruden does. Which is a trophy with an * next to it. But most evidence I have seen is Dungy was every bit the coach that Gruden was but is a better person. In coaching, being a decent person is not a requirement but being a decent person is far more important than a profession.

Yes, that is the job of a head coach, to allow and/or hire smart people to do their jobs. I don't discount head coaches for perfectly handling that. I work in athletics and see firsthand how egos ruin staffs.

After all, as recently said, no one builds a championship roster by themselves. By that metric, Dungy's Indy Super Bowl trophy has an asterisk since he didn't develop Manning.

The decent person stuff means nothing when it comes to evaluating football results. Gruden wrote some dumb emails. His family life seems normal and stable. Dungy's son was so neglected that he killed himself. They are both alpha sharks who swam in the NFL ocean and survived at a personal cost.

[Attyla]

Blaming a suicide on the father or the father's job is a fallacy. Mental illness presents differently in people. And saying Dungy was an absent father? I find no evidence of that. I do think in most suicides that mental defect or extreme pressure on the individual is the main reason.

I did say that being decent is not a requirement for a coach but I do value a decent person over someone of questionable moral fiber. And the evidence of that is going to weigh in Dungy's favor by all metrics we have available to us

[LayneStaley]

Imagine blaming Geno or Jeanty for our offense when we have the 2 worst Gs in the entire NFL starting.

This ^ belongs in the Oline and Geno threads.

[Reno Hightower]

Neither should be in the HOF, especially Flores, who turned into utter crap when he left the elite Raiders organization. Gruden, at least, won games at both stops.

Then again, I think the HOF is too easy on head coach access. They need higher standards.

He won a Super Bowl. As much as people want to discount it, he got it done. He beat Philly in weather that no Tampa team ever won in. Dungy couldn't beat Philly in the playoffs.

Actually Flores was a part of three Super Bowl winning Raider teams, he was an assistant on the 1976 team. Marcus Allen once said that being a head coach is more about X's and O's. It's about managing people. He won two Super Bowl's exceeding that standard does not get any higher.

He was the perfect coach, not only how he approached his players but how he was able to work and succeed with Al, which was not easy but could be immensely rewarding for those that pulled it off. If you say he doesn't deserve to be in the HOF then you are taking a very shallow perspective on his career.

I wish some of Tom could have rubbed off on Gruden in how he meshed with Al but they had polar opposite personalities even though they shared the same will to win. You have to be you. But make no mistake Tom was as tenacious as Jon.

I met Tom once at a steakhouse on Lake Union in Seattle in 2001. The Raiders were about to play the Seahawks at Husky Stadium and I believe Tom was there to call the game with Greg Papa.

Very down to earth, sincere and gracious man. He was very complimentary of Gruden. I didn't have a smartphone then but wish I could have gotten a picture with him.

Jon needed someone like Al in the front office to work for. A Ron Wolf or George Young. He was a terrible personnel man and a terrible December coach. Once again if you want to solely credit Jon for Tampa Bay's Super Bowl win you are also a taking an extremely shallow perspective.

Also taking shots at Dungy because of his son's tragic passing is simply ignorant. You shouldn't have touched that one. It has zero relevance to any discussion pertaining to football.

When need to get this thread back on topic but I believe you are wrong on all three counts. Just my opinion but some like chocolate ice cream while some like vanilla. Personally I prefer Neapolitan.

[Hellbound]

Neither should be in the HOF, especially Flores, who turned into utter crap when he left the elite Raiders organization. Gruden, at least, won games at both stops.

Then again, I think the HOF is too easy on head coach access. They need higher standards.

He won a Super Bowl. As much as people want to discount it, he got it done. He beat Philly in weather that no Tampa team ever won in. Dungy couldn't beat Philly in the playoffs.

You do realize Dungy won a SB right? Not sure why you're discounting his accomplishment while praising Gruden
Did Dungy elevate Manning since Manning couldn't get it done before him?

[Attyla]

You do realize Dungy won a SB right? Not sure why you're discounting his accomplishment while praising Gruden
Did Dungy elevate Manning since Manning couldn't get it done before him?

yep, crediting one while disparaging the other makes no sense. Dungy was a defensive minded coach so his defenses were his hallmark. While all evidence suggests Kiffin was the main reason for that defense, Dungy does not get zero credit. Also, Dungy did, in fact, get his team to the Super Bowl. While Gruden took a ready made Bucs team to the championship in his first year, Dungy built the Colts over 4 more years before they won it all. All evidence suggests that taking a ready made team to success vs a team that was developed over time favors Dungy in that regard. And his 146 wins also favors Dungy. Dungy built two teams to playoff caliber. Gruden built one, but never had the level of success his first season provided in Tampa. Is Jon worthy of HOF consideration? Perhaps but it is a moot point since his indiscretions are going to cloud that. Is Dungy worthy of his enshrinement? His Tampa 2 defenses which he used both in Tampa and Indy with a large level of success and his overall coaching record say yes. The championship is just the cherry on top and puts him over the edge. Dungy has the edge in win percentage as well. His writings are also interesting, I read a couple of them and also portions of others. Jon has a heavy metal channel. I say these last couple items more tongue in cheek, because I know I will get slayed for them, but that is just me amusing myself.

[Xramfan]

Smells like mouse piss in here

[Corleone]

Imagine blaming Geno or Jeanty for our offense when we have the 2 worst Gs in the entire NFL starting.

This ^ belongs in the Oline and Geno threads.

I just can't imagine not seeing the problem with Geno Smith at QB.

[DanKD]

Geno has been absolutely terrible since week 1. I was happy getting him but he has been awful on the whole so far.

[FlyBono24]

Would be winning by a lot right now if this stupid f[raiders_icon]cker didn't throw 3 f[raiders_icon]cking picks

[Raidernation1979]

Geno is a terrible qb and this trade as usual with us was an idiotic move.

[mranquales]

Wish we chose Russell Wilson instead.

[Atlasffa]

Geno drank all my