Emo Andy Dalton after a trip to Sephora on Groundhog Day (Carr thread)
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RaiderandBulldog
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KillerRaider30
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[quote=Attyla post_id=1070285]Tampa the year before Brady
Tampa the year after Brady
Yes, they added pieces but the most important guy on the field still matters the most.[/quote]Yes absolutely.
Never said QB they don't.
I'm saying the QB contributions does not outweigh the contributions of ALL the other starters combined.
And we've had some some real shit teams. No?? If posters can't see that I can't help them.
There's reasons this team hits a brick wall at 5-8 wins most of these last 8 years.
Surely a respected poster like yourself, and I mean that, would agree.
Tampa the year after Brady
Yes, they added pieces but the most important guy on the field still matters the most.[/quote]Yes absolutely.
Never said QB they don't.
I'm saying the QB contributions does not outweigh the contributions of ALL the other starters combined.
And we've had some some real shit teams. No?? If posters can't see that I can't help them.
There's reasons this team hits a brick wall at 5-8 wins most of these last 8 years.
Surely a respected poster like yourself, and I mean that, would agree.
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Attyla
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[quote=KillerRaider30 post_id=1070288]Yes absolutely.
Never said QB they don't.
I'm saying the QB contributions does not outweigh the contributions of ALL the other starters combined.
And we've had some some real shit teams. No?? If posters can't see that I can't help them.
There's reasons this team hits a brick wall at 5-8 wins most of these last 8 years.
Surely a respected poster like yourself, and I mean that, would agree.[/quote]no I do not disagree, but my point was more about the impact one player can have on a team. Yes he needs a supporting cast, but the better the single most important player is on the field, the more he can offset other factors.
And to be quite honest, the guy who stands out as "hitting the wall" is Carr who's numbers tend to drop further and further into the year we go. I watched a rookie with 15 minutes notice take a team onto the field and win his first game. That takes a strong level of mental determination given he was supposed to hold a clipboard that season.
But thank you for the compliment. Debating with you is always fun.
Never said QB they don't.
I'm saying the QB contributions does not outweigh the contributions of ALL the other starters combined.
And we've had some some real shit teams. No?? If posters can't see that I can't help them.
There's reasons this team hits a brick wall at 5-8 wins most of these last 8 years.
Surely a respected poster like yourself, and I mean that, would agree.[/quote]no I do not disagree, but my point was more about the impact one player can have on a team. Yes he needs a supporting cast, but the better the single most important player is on the field, the more he can offset other factors.
And to be quite honest, the guy who stands out as "hitting the wall" is Carr who's numbers tend to drop further and further into the year we go. I watched a rookie with 15 minutes notice take a team onto the field and win his first game. That takes a strong level of mental determination given he was supposed to hold a clipboard that season.
But thank you for the compliment. Debating with you is always fun.
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Raidernation1979
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One lesson I learned in life. If everyone else is the problem maybe you should look in the mirror.
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KillerRaider30
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[quote=Attyla post_id=1070289]no I do not disagree, but my point was more about the impact one player can have on a team. Yes he needs a supporting cast, but the better the single most important player is on the field, the more he can offset other factors.
And to be quite honest, the guy who stands out as "hitting the wall" is Carr who's numbers tend to drop further and further into the year we go. I watched a rookie with 15 minutes notice take a team onto the field and win his first game. That takes a strong level of mental determination given he was supposed to hold a clipboard that season.
But thank you for the compliment. Debating with you is always fun.[/quote] and I agree. I just disagree with the amount he can offset.
Right off the bat he can't offset anything on defense and thats 50%.
We can debate turnovers by a QB and how putting the defense in a bad situation compromises that side of the ball.
But equally so the defense can get turnovers and put the offense in a good situation to score.
Stats are the defense ranks nearer to the bottom of the league in takeaways that the offense in turnovers.
I also don't feel the QB can do much about WRs who can't separate to get open or ancient red zone schemes.
I just don't know Carrs ceiling but we're about to find out bc outside him getting sacked 60 times there's no holes in the offense.
And to be quite honest, the guy who stands out as "hitting the wall" is Carr who's numbers tend to drop further and further into the year we go. I watched a rookie with 15 minutes notice take a team onto the field and win his first game. That takes a strong level of mental determination given he was supposed to hold a clipboard that season.
But thank you for the compliment. Debating with you is always fun.[/quote] and I agree. I just disagree with the amount he can offset.
Right off the bat he can't offset anything on defense and thats 50%.
We can debate turnovers by a QB and how putting the defense in a bad situation compromises that side of the ball.
But equally so the defense can get turnovers and put the offense in a good situation to score.
Stats are the defense ranks nearer to the bottom of the league in takeaways that the offense in turnovers.
I also don't feel the QB can do much about WRs who can't separate to get open or ancient red zone schemes.
I just don't know Carrs ceiling but we're about to find out bc outside him getting sacked 60 times there's no holes in the offense.
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Attyla
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[quote=KillerRaider30 post_id=1070295] and I agree. I just disagree with the amount he can offset.
Right off the bat he can't offset anything on defense and thats 50%.
We can debate turnovers by a QB and how putting the defense in a bad situation compromises that side of the ball.
But equally so the defense can get turnovers and put the offense in a good situation to score.
Stats are the defense ranks nearer to the bottom of the league in takeaways that the offense in turnovers.
I also don't feel the QB can do much about WRs who can't separate to get open or ancient red zone schemes.
I just don't know Carrs ceiling but we're about to find out bc outside him getting sacked 60 times there's no holes in the offense.[/quote]the wide receiver argument is not valid. We all know Carr can get the yards, and his targets in the redzone do not change. He does not see a short field well, that is just a reality through his years. As for the defense, the offense impacts that as well. TOP is a stat that is unusually ignored but when the offense is on the field longer, we tend to win. The offense can and usually does dictate that stat. As for take aways, it is usually a good indicator of success, but that works both ways. We tend not to take away, but we give away at a pretty high clip. It is a symbiotic relationship but since this team was built as an offensive team, you have to look at the offense as the responsible party. Gruden, whom I have been on record as disliking, built it to control the pace of the game. The offense has failed at this for his entire tenure, including last year even though we made the playoffs. It took changing that to more of an up tempo offense coupled with a surprising output from the defense in holding 4 of our last 6 opponents to 20 or less points to get us to the second season. Now, we are seeing McDaniel continue the trend of building an offensive based team, so again the offense will be the responsible party to whether we have success or not.
Right off the bat he can't offset anything on defense and thats 50%.
We can debate turnovers by a QB and how putting the defense in a bad situation compromises that side of the ball.
But equally so the defense can get turnovers and put the offense in a good situation to score.
Stats are the defense ranks nearer to the bottom of the league in takeaways that the offense in turnovers.
I also don't feel the QB can do much about WRs who can't separate to get open or ancient red zone schemes.
I just don't know Carrs ceiling but we're about to find out bc outside him getting sacked 60 times there's no holes in the offense.[/quote]the wide receiver argument is not valid. We all know Carr can get the yards, and his targets in the redzone do not change. He does not see a short field well, that is just a reality through his years. As for the defense, the offense impacts that as well. TOP is a stat that is unusually ignored but when the offense is on the field longer, we tend to win. The offense can and usually does dictate that stat. As for take aways, it is usually a good indicator of success, but that works both ways. We tend not to take away, but we give away at a pretty high clip. It is a symbiotic relationship but since this team was built as an offensive team, you have to look at the offense as the responsible party. Gruden, whom I have been on record as disliking, built it to control the pace of the game. The offense has failed at this for his entire tenure, including last year even though we made the playoffs. It took changing that to more of an up tempo offense coupled with a surprising output from the defense in holding 4 of our last 6 opponents to 20 or less points to get us to the second season. Now, we are seeing McDaniel continue the trend of building an offensive based team, so again the offense will be the responsible party to whether we have success or not.
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Willmark
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[quote=KillerRaider30 post_id=1070295] and I agree. I just disagree with the amount he can offset.
Right off the bat he can't offset anything on defense and thats 50%.
We can debate turnovers by a QB and how putting the defense in a bad situation compromises that side of the ball.
But equally so the defense can get turnovers and put the offense in a good situation to score.
Stats are the defense ranks nearer to the bottom of the league in takeaways that the offense in turnovers.
I also don't feel the QB can do much about WRs who can't separate to get open or ancient red zone schemes.
I just don't know Carrs ceiling but we're about to find out bc outside him getting sacked 60 times there's no holes in the offense.[/quote]As to the bolded is the reverse true? That the defense can’t offset anything that Carr and by extension the offense doesn’t do?
Right off the bat he can't offset anything on defense and thats 50%.
We can debate turnovers by a QB and how putting the defense in a bad situation compromises that side of the ball.
But equally so the defense can get turnovers and put the offense in a good situation to score.
Stats are the defense ranks nearer to the bottom of the league in takeaways that the offense in turnovers.
I also don't feel the QB can do much about WRs who can't separate to get open or ancient red zone schemes.
I just don't know Carrs ceiling but we're about to find out bc outside him getting sacked 60 times there's no holes in the offense.[/quote]As to the bolded is the reverse true? That the defense can’t offset anything that Carr and by extension the offense doesn’t do?
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Attyla
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[quote=Willmark post_id=1071041]As to the bolded is the reverse true? That the defense can’t offset anything that Carr and by extension the offense doesn’t do?[/quote]its funny, everyone assumes the offense and defense are half and half. They rarely are. Teams these days are mostly either built offensively or defensively. I can think of almost no team that is 50/50 balanced. It was hard to do it back in the day and in today's rules it is near impossible. If a team is built defensively, then the defense will bear a larger amount of the burden for success and thus the 50/50 idea is eliminated. Nobody expected Dilfer to do much because the defense was so overpowering when he won his ring. The same applies today. Our team was not built to overpower on defense so the burden of success falls on the offense where significant resources have been spent. I get that it is an easy argument that says the defense is half of whether we succeed or not but it really is not because the focus has been to just outscore the opponents. The imbalance was by design.
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Raidernation1979
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[quote=Attyla post_id=1071048]its funny, everyone assumes the offense and defense are half and half. They rarely are. Teams these days are mostly either built offensively or defensively. I can think of almost no team that is 50/50 balanced. It was hard to do it back in the day and in today's rules it is near impossible. If a team is built defensively, then the defense will bear a larger amount of the burden for success and thus the 50/50 idea is eliminated. Nobody expected Dilfer to do much because the defense was so overpowering when he won his ring. The same applies today. Our team was not built to overpower on defense so the burden of success falls on the offense where significant resources have been spent. I get that it is an easy argument that says the defense is half of whether we succeed or not but it really is not because the focus has been to just outscore the opponents. The imbalance was by design.[/quote]We can even point to the games (albeit too few) when our defense held teams below 20 we have an abysmal record
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KillerRaider30
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Then go to the games where the defense gave up 40 or more the past 10 years. Theres probably 50 of those. Lol
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Attyla
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[quote=KillerRaider30 post_id=1071066]Then go to the games where the defense gave up 40 or more the past 10 years. Theres probably 50 of those. Lol[/quote]this is where your aguments fall apart and it is not infrequent. 10 years equals 161 games. We gave up 2 40 point games last year. We did not give up 40 points or more in a third of our games. That is what the math is by your assertion. I get it that your go to is blame the defense but fight the battles you can win. Do not create battles that do not exist.
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KillerRaider30
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[quote=Attyla post_id=1071067]this is where your aguments fall apart and it is not infrequent. 10 years equals 161 games. We gave up 2 40 point games last year. We did not give up 40 points or more in a third of our games. That is what the math is by your assertion. I get it that your go to is blame the defense but fight the battles you can win. Do not create battles that do not exist.[/quote]Just being sarcastic with the probably and the lol.
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Attyla
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[quote=KillerRaider30 post_id=1071073]Just being sarcastic with the probably and the lol.[/quote]no, you were using exaggeration to make the defense more of a problem than the truth suggests. It really is a poor way to debate since it uses sensationalism to sell a point. The media employs this technique a lot and it frankly irritates the f[raiders_icon]ck out of me.
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RaiderandBulldog
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Well this is good news https://raiderswire.usatoday.com/2022/0 ... ring-camp/
Derek Carr has looked really sharp throughout training camp. I haven’t observed him throw any interceptions and it’s clear that his chemistry with receiver Davante Adams hasn’t gone anywhere.
Carr has already proven himself to be one of the better quarterbacks in the league, but it’s still impressive to see how quickly he’s adjusted to learning yet another new play caller and offensive scheme.”
Derek Carr has looked really sharp throughout training camp. I haven’t observed him throw any interceptions and it’s clear that his chemistry with receiver Davante Adams hasn’t gone anywhere.
Carr has already proven himself to be one of the better quarterbacks in the league, but it’s still impressive to see how quickly he’s adjusted to learning yet another new play caller and offensive scheme.”