Emo Andy Dalton after a trip to Sephora on Groundhog Day (Carr thread)
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RaiderandBulldog
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KillerRaider30
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[quote=Opoponax50 post_id=1015197]We'll never know what would've happened without Gruden's leaving and the Ruggs incident. What seems to be clear though is that the team needs a fresh start.
By season's end, Carr will have been here 8 years. We know what we have in him regardless of circumstances, and it's time to move on; new coaching staff, new philosophy, a new direction, and a new player at the QB position.
In today's NFL, without an elite QB, you're not going anywhere. Look at the way Herbert plays the game. Nothing less than that will do anymore. The rules that so favor the passing game and protect the quarterback makes the QB more important than at any other time in the game's history. I don't like it, but that's the reality.
I'm looking forward to a rebuild. Waiting for Carr to be the guy, even when it was obvious he wasn't has been frustrating to watch. The rehiring of Gruden was a terrible idea from the get-go. It's been like being stuck with a spouse where you keep waiting for that one big reason to leave, but for some reason you always find an excuse to not leave. Well, now is the time and we should all be glad for it.[/quote]The Raiders should build everything except QB and wait for a Manning or Brady to become available.
By season's end, Carr will have been here 8 years. We know what we have in him regardless of circumstances, and it's time to move on; new coaching staff, new philosophy, a new direction, and a new player at the QB position.
In today's NFL, without an elite QB, you're not going anywhere. Look at the way Herbert plays the game. Nothing less than that will do anymore. The rules that so favor the passing game and protect the quarterback makes the QB more important than at any other time in the game's history. I don't like it, but that's the reality.
I'm looking forward to a rebuild. Waiting for Carr to be the guy, even when it was obvious he wasn't has been frustrating to watch. The rehiring of Gruden was a terrible idea from the get-go. It's been like being stuck with a spouse where you keep waiting for that one big reason to leave, but for some reason you always find an excuse to not leave. Well, now is the time and we should all be glad for it.[/quote]The Raiders should build everything except QB and wait for a Manning or Brady to become available.
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Raiderfanrich
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The ball security thing is really concerning and has been for a long while now. Anytime a guy gets close to him you're fearing a sack fumble. I also get sick and tired of the constant dump offs, throws behind the sticks on 3rd down, wasting timeouts constantly (it's pretty rare for us even to have 3 timeouts at the end of a half). All that said, we know that Olsen is garbage as a play caller so no doubt, that is not helping the situation currently.
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Aqua
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[quote=Toons post_id=1015256]The Carr fanatics have to really ask and look at the situation, how is it he's a 8 year starter and still so bad at redzone conversions? No excuses, give the fair analysis of this fact.[/quote]Other than the Carr family I don't believe there are more than a few "Carr fanatics". Instead I believe the fans who support Carr consider him to be an "o.k. quarterback" and they worry that another QB could be worse.
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raiderrod
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I've mostly steered clear of the Carr debate for the past year or so. It had reached a point where the vast majority of fans had made up their mind regarding Carr and the same arguments were recycled over and over. Those individuals who have their identity tied to Carr are not going to be swayed regardless of how he plays. Those who can't stand him are never going to come around. I've always considered myself to be somewhere in the middle. Which is actually where I think most fans have been despite the noise on social media and on this forum. This week's game was enough for me to say it's time to move on; even if it means bottoming out completely.
I don't think Carr has been the biggest problem with the Raiders during his time here. He has shown that on a given day, he can be above average. He has never shown the ability to consistently string together solid performances or elevate a team when things aren't going well.
He is the lone thing on the offensive side of the ball that has not changed during his time here. Coaches, coordinators, players, have all come and gone. He is the only thing that hasn't changed. Which I realize has not probably been the best for his progression either. It doesn't absolve him either. He is playing the most important singular position in professional team sports. No other position in team sports has a greater impact on a team's overall success.
I don't think Mariota is an upgrade from Carr. I don't think he is a long-term solution. He is different though. Change is needed. I understand the argument this team is still in the middle of a playoff race. I don't see this team making the playoffs. They are not going to turn this around this year or next year if Carr is here. He's had his chance. He didn't get it done. All his fault? No. That's life.
Time to go a different direction.
I don't think Carr has been the biggest problem with the Raiders during his time here. He has shown that on a given day, he can be above average. He has never shown the ability to consistently string together solid performances or elevate a team when things aren't going well.
He is the lone thing on the offensive side of the ball that has not changed during his time here. Coaches, coordinators, players, have all come and gone. He is the only thing that hasn't changed. Which I realize has not probably been the best for his progression either. It doesn't absolve him either. He is playing the most important singular position in professional team sports. No other position in team sports has a greater impact on a team's overall success.
I don't think Mariota is an upgrade from Carr. I don't think he is a long-term solution. He is different though. Change is needed. I understand the argument this team is still in the middle of a playoff race. I don't see this team making the playoffs. They are not going to turn this around this year or next year if Carr is here. He's had his chance. He didn't get it done. All his fault? No. That's life.
Time to go a different direction.
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KillerRaider30
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The Carr hate is strong today.
Nice guys finish last and I think Carr is such a nice guy he doesn't have one bit of killer instinct.
#BenchCarr
Nice guys finish last and I think Carr is such a nice guy he doesn't have one bit of killer instinct.
#BenchCarr
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raiders1988xyz
why bother keeping carr if we going .500 mark every year
the goal is to win the super bowl period
the goal is to win the super bowl period
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NoThanksSir
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[quote=Aqua post_id=1015282]That's fine but which QB do you want the Raiders to acquire ?[/quote]Right now my eyes would be on a 1 yr prove it deal from a bandaid veteran. Someone along the likes of Fitzpatrick, Mariota. Basically someone who we can plug in to do the job well enough to allow the development of other players while allowing the team to be in position to draft a legitimate QB prospect. I.E, being bad enough to warrant a T10 selection.
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tactician
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[quote=KillerRaider30 post_id=1015290]The Carr hate is strong today.
Nice guys finish last and I think Carr is such a nice guy he doesn't have one bit of killer instinct.
#BenchCarr[/quote]It's not about "killer instinct". Once again we overrated personality traits, and underrate the importance of skill. Carr has an arm but that's it. He's not mobile and he doesn't see the field well. That's why he sucks in the red zone. It's more compressed and you have to have quicker eyes, or move around like Rodgers or Wilson. Herbert is a soft spoken nice guy, but he's more talented than Carr.
Nice guys finish last and I think Carr is such a nice guy he doesn't have one bit of killer instinct.
#BenchCarr[/quote]It's not about "killer instinct". Once again we overrated personality traits, and underrate the importance of skill. Carr has an arm but that's it. He's not mobile and he doesn't see the field well. That's why he sucks in the red zone. It's more compressed and you have to have quicker eyes, or move around like Rodgers or Wilson. Herbert is a soft spoken nice guy, but he's more talented than Carr.
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deathstar
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[quote=raiders1988xyz post_id=1015291]why bother keeping carr if we going .500 mark every year
the goal is to win the super bowl period[/quote]The goal is to be 4-12 every season, just look at the past 20 seasons. 1 playoff in 20 years is the norm for the Raiders franchise.
the goal is to win the super bowl period[/quote]The goal is to be 4-12 every season, just look at the past 20 seasons. 1 playoff in 20 years is the norm for the Raiders franchise.
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Opoponax50
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[quote=Aqua post_id=1015268]O.K., so you've now declared 8 out of the 32 NFL starting QB's are elite. In other words, the overwhelming majority (75%) of NFL teams do not have an elite QB. It's easy for yourself and others to say "to win in the NFL you need an elite QB", but the reality is that it's very rare for a team to have that type of QB.
For next season , if the Raiders are willing to pay $35 to $40 million per year for a QB, Rodgers, Wilson, or maybe Watson could be available. Is acquiring one of those QB's what you believe the Raiders should do ?[/quote]I said 4 were elite. I said the other 4 were to "a lesser extent."
When I say that you need an elite QB to have a shot in the NFL, that's nothing more than an accurate statement. But you are right; it is rare for a team to have a QB of that level.
I've talked about how I think the league's rule changes over the last 15+ years have caused the problem of needing a great quarterback. A team can get into the playoffs here and there based on a number of factors, but when it comes to competing for a championship, you have to have one of the best QBs in the game. I think it's ruining the league
Every season, there are a tiny handful of teams who have a legitimate shot of winning a Super Bowl. There isn't going to some team that comes out of nowhere to win it all like we did in 1980-81. There's no more 2000 Ravens where a devastating defense and a solid ground game is going to win the Lombardi. Nope. Only a team with a top QB is going to take it all, and it sucks.
As for what we should do, we have to find a QB. But we're not going to except by sheer dumb luck (think Patriots with Brady). The same goes for the other 25 or so teams in the league.
For next season , if the Raiders are willing to pay $35 to $40 million per year for a QB, Rodgers, Wilson, or maybe Watson could be available. Is acquiring one of those QB's what you believe the Raiders should do ?[/quote]I said 4 were elite. I said the other 4 were to "a lesser extent."
When I say that you need an elite QB to have a shot in the NFL, that's nothing more than an accurate statement. But you are right; it is rare for a team to have a QB of that level.
I've talked about how I think the league's rule changes over the last 15+ years have caused the problem of needing a great quarterback. A team can get into the playoffs here and there based on a number of factors, but when it comes to competing for a championship, you have to have one of the best QBs in the game. I think it's ruining the league
Every season, there are a tiny handful of teams who have a legitimate shot of winning a Super Bowl. There isn't going to some team that comes out of nowhere to win it all like we did in 1980-81. There's no more 2000 Ravens where a devastating defense and a solid ground game is going to win the Lombardi. Nope. Only a team with a top QB is going to take it all, and it sucks.
As for what we should do, we have to find a QB. But we're not going to except by sheer dumb luck (think Patriots with Brady). The same goes for the other 25 or so teams in the league.
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Opoponax50
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[quote=KillerRaider30 post_id=1015286]The Raiders should build everything except QB and wait for a Manning or Brady to become available.[/quote]At this point, why not? You'll never keep a team like together for very long due to the cap, but it's more viable than hoping for us to draft the next HOF QB. It's kind of like what the Titans have done. They've built a solid team without a great QB. They likely won't get to a Super Bowl, but they have a puncher's chance every year. I'd rather have that than hope the next Brady or Manning somehow falls to us.
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Aqua
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[quote=Opoponax50 post_id=1015299]I said 4 were elite. I said the other 4 were to "a lesser extent."
When I say that you need an elite QB to have a shot in the NFL, that's nothing more than an accurate statement. But you are right; it is rare for a team to have a QB of that level.
I've talked about how I think the league's rule changes over the last 15+ years have caused the problem of needing a great quarterback. A team can get into the playoffs here and there based on a number of factors, but when it comes to competing for a championship, you have to have one of the best QBs in the game. I think it's ruining the league
Every season, there are a tiny handful of teams who have a legitimate shot of winning a Super Bowl. There isn't going to some team that comes out of nowhere to win it all like we did in 1980-81. There's no more 2000 Ravens where a devastating defense and a solid ground game is going to win the Lombardi. Nope. Only a team with a top QB is going to take it all, and it sucks.
As for what we should do, we have to find a QB. But we're not going to except by sheer dumb luck (think Patriots with Brady). The same goes for the other 25 or so teams in the league.[/quote]I think you are putting too much emphasis on an individual player's skills. In other words, without an all around good team no QB can produce many wins. For example, should the Patriots keep it going and win the Super Bowl this year it won't because Mac Jones is elite.
Truly several QB's could be producing wins for that team right now. Mac Jones is a great QB but were he on the Jaguars, Lions, Bears, Dolphins, Texans etc... he would probably be getting sacked and throwing pick sixes.
When I say that you need an elite QB to have a shot in the NFL, that's nothing more than an accurate statement. But you are right; it is rare for a team to have a QB of that level.
I've talked about how I think the league's rule changes over the last 15+ years have caused the problem of needing a great quarterback. A team can get into the playoffs here and there based on a number of factors, but when it comes to competing for a championship, you have to have one of the best QBs in the game. I think it's ruining the league
Every season, there are a tiny handful of teams who have a legitimate shot of winning a Super Bowl. There isn't going to some team that comes out of nowhere to win it all like we did in 1980-81. There's no more 2000 Ravens where a devastating defense and a solid ground game is going to win the Lombardi. Nope. Only a team with a top QB is going to take it all, and it sucks.
As for what we should do, we have to find a QB. But we're not going to except by sheer dumb luck (think Patriots with Brady). The same goes for the other 25 or so teams in the league.[/quote]I think you are putting too much emphasis on an individual player's skills. In other words, without an all around good team no QB can produce many wins. For example, should the Patriots keep it going and win the Super Bowl this year it won't because Mac Jones is elite.
Truly several QB's could be producing wins for that team right now. Mac Jones is a great QB but were he on the Jaguars, Lions, Bears, Dolphins, Texans etc... he would probably be getting sacked and throwing pick sixes.
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Xramfan
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16 to 88
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[quote=WNYRAIDER post_id=1015275]I'm not sticking up for Carr,...at all, just offering a little reality, as some around here have gotten themselves so lubed up on those who still support, or even try to still support Carr, as something that is far more than it really is. Most of you are seeing mirages, based on what i have seen, and yet get your dumb ass's all worked up over it, day, after day, after day....
In regard to Allen, i see just about all of every game, and live near in the burbs near the Buffalo area. and i can tell you that many here are legitimately worried about the kid. Some of the stuff i saw in 2 of the last three weeks was stiff 3rd stringers should be beyond. I had absolutely no idea who he was throwing to more than half teh time this last Sunday.[/quote]This and your last posts speaks volumes.
There is very little middle ground when it comes to Derek. Using Allen as an example he has had the same HC/OC since he entered the league in 18. He's also had a top 5 defense in 3 out of his 4 seasons there and the one year they were out of the top 5 they were at least middle of the pack at #14.
His first two years there were brutal. He didn't look very good at all and then last year was his break out year. Now reverse engineer that. Have him drafted by this organization back in 14. It doesn't take much football insight whatsoever to realize he is nowhere near the same QB. The boo birds here would be all over him as well.
I've pointed this out ad nauseam with Mahomes. Must be nice to be drafted by an offensive genius like Reid, sit for year and learn the system, then have the likes of Kelce and Hill to throw to at your disposal. Had he been drafted here or some other poor organization are we seriously going to contend we would see the same play?! I would certainly hope not.
Is he better then Derek? For sure he is but that doesn't somehow erase the fact he stepped into a superb situation. Alex Smith looked like a world beater on the Chiefs. Gee, I wonder why? With all that stated and as noted from the offseason I was pounding the table to ship Carr off for something, Put MM under center and continue to build a team. He's a middle of the road QB. What this team needs first and foremost is a legitimate HC for years to come...
In regard to Allen, i see just about all of every game, and live near in the burbs near the Buffalo area. and i can tell you that many here are legitimately worried about the kid. Some of the stuff i saw in 2 of the last three weeks was stiff 3rd stringers should be beyond. I had absolutely no idea who he was throwing to more than half teh time this last Sunday.[/quote]This and your last posts speaks volumes.
There is very little middle ground when it comes to Derek. Using Allen as an example he has had the same HC/OC since he entered the league in 18. He's also had a top 5 defense in 3 out of his 4 seasons there and the one year they were out of the top 5 they were at least middle of the pack at #14.
His first two years there were brutal. He didn't look very good at all and then last year was his break out year. Now reverse engineer that. Have him drafted by this organization back in 14. It doesn't take much football insight whatsoever to realize he is nowhere near the same QB. The boo birds here would be all over him as well.
I've pointed this out ad nauseam with Mahomes. Must be nice to be drafted by an offensive genius like Reid, sit for year and learn the system, then have the likes of Kelce and Hill to throw to at your disposal. Had he been drafted here or some other poor organization are we seriously going to contend we would see the same play?! I would certainly hope not.
Is he better then Derek? For sure he is but that doesn't somehow erase the fact he stepped into a superb situation. Alex Smith looked like a world beater on the Chiefs. Gee, I wonder why? With all that stated and as noted from the offseason I was pounding the table to ship Carr off for something, Put MM under center and continue to build a team. He's a middle of the road QB. What this team needs first and foremost is a legitimate HC for years to come...
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Aqua
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[quote=NoThanksSir post_id=1015292]Right now my eyes would be on a 1 yr prove it deal from a bandaid veteran. Someone along the likes of Fitzpatrick, Mariota. Basically someone who we can plug in to do the job well enough to allow the development of other players while allowing the team to be in position to draft a legitimate QB prospect. I.E, being bad enough to warrant a T10 selection.[/quote]I am not sure if the Raiders are obligated to pay Carr for the 2022 season.