Emo Andy Dalton after a trip to Sephora on Groundhog Day (Carr thread)
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RaiderandBulldog
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JP808
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[quote=Jeremyturner1976 post_id=1049535]Scale of difficulty:
Replace 23 TDs, 14 ints, 13 interceptions with 30 million in cap and a first round rookie.
Or
Become a top 3 offense and top 5 defense able to carry an overpaid QB. Note: We are currently the 26th ranked defense and 14th ranked offense and already have 30 plus million sitting on the bench next year.[/quote]OK. So name a QB available in the draft or in FA that can replace these stats? Guarantee you many on this board will be very hesitant.
Replace 23 TDs, 14 ints, 13 interceptions with 30 million in cap and a first round rookie.
Or
Become a top 3 offense and top 5 defense able to carry an overpaid QB. Note: We are currently the 26th ranked defense and 14th ranked offense and already have 30 plus million sitting on the bench next year.[/quote]OK. So name a QB available in the draft or in FA that can replace these stats? Guarantee you many on this board will be very hesitant.
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black soul
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[quote=LayneStaley post_id=1049553]Watching the Super Bowl has got a few too worked up around here. Before burning down one of the few decent teams we have had in 20 years and starting over how about taking a step of the ledge and seeing what McDaniels and “new management” can do. Everyone on this board is frustrated, trying to attack others who see it differently doesn’t help prove your point, it just makes you seem “emotional”.[/quote]Nope, what would be emotional is giving a guy with his actual TD/ Turnover production this past season and 0 playoff wins in 8 seasons a big contract that would make it difficult to build a great team around him, and believe that he would need a "great," team around him to get anywhere unless you really like this 8-8 and occasional WC loss season mediocrity.
What would not be emotional would be to actually consider trading him at the height of his trade value or letting him play out his lame duck year to see if he does well with McDaniels before committing a large money extension to him.
Simply disregarding his lack of success the past 8 seasons, ignoring his business decision guaranteed money years of 2017-2019 when the team gave him a fat contract and rationalizing that he just needs more of this and that etc. and being ok with giving him a fat extension would actually be the highly emotional decision.
What would not be emotional would be to actually consider trading him at the height of his trade value or letting him play out his lame duck year to see if he does well with McDaniels before committing a large money extension to him.
Simply disregarding his lack of success the past 8 seasons, ignoring his business decision guaranteed money years of 2017-2019 when the team gave him a fat contract and rationalizing that he just needs more of this and that etc. and being ok with giving him a fat extension would actually be the highly emotional decision.
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LayneStaley
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[quote=Jeremyturner1976 post_id=1049542]We are picking 22 and losing 15+ million in talent signing Carr this offseason. You tell me how close we are? Just a QB away?
How about the draft after that, how about trading for a Stafford once we need him. Once we have multiple studs and have to settle for average.
We are so far from the Rams right now. We need to stock the cupboards, not pay a QB like we are a QB away. Carr is on contract next year, make him play it - then decide. The guy was 18-20th ranked 3 of the last 5 years and choked in the playoffs.
30 million brings in lots of talent and turnover. Still looking forward to next season but putting all of our hopes in a long term Carr contract is buying magic beans.
When we rebuild again in 4 years going nowhere, Carr choking in another playoff one and done game - remind me how poor my decision was then would ya?[/quote]30 mil brings in lots of talent, last time it brought in two LBs who were both benched this season. We have wasted every FA period and First round pick for years! That’s why ur cupboards are bare. Starts at the top. Carr is an easy scapegoat, qb normally is. I do not think Carr is elite but when a market for qbs has been set you are stuck paying what that market says. Saying anything is better than Carr is just foolish. It starts at the top, hopefully we have a GM now who can stock those cupboards. Also winnings rosters are built through the draft, something we have been arguably the worst in the entire NFL at.
How about the draft after that, how about trading for a Stafford once we need him. Once we have multiple studs and have to settle for average.
We are so far from the Rams right now. We need to stock the cupboards, not pay a QB like we are a QB away. Carr is on contract next year, make him play it - then decide. The guy was 18-20th ranked 3 of the last 5 years and choked in the playoffs.
30 million brings in lots of talent and turnover. Still looking forward to next season but putting all of our hopes in a long term Carr contract is buying magic beans.
When we rebuild again in 4 years going nowhere, Carr choking in another playoff one and done game - remind me how poor my decision was then would ya?[/quote]30 mil brings in lots of talent, last time it brought in two LBs who were both benched this season. We have wasted every FA period and First round pick for years! That’s why ur cupboards are bare. Starts at the top. Carr is an easy scapegoat, qb normally is. I do not think Carr is elite but when a market for qbs has been set you are stuck paying what that market says. Saying anything is better than Carr is just foolish. It starts at the top, hopefully we have a GM now who can stock those cupboards. Also winnings rosters are built through the draft, something we have been arguably the worst in the entire NFL at.
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LayneStaley
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[quote=LayneStaley post_id=1049558]30 mil brings in lots of talent, last time it brought in two LBs who were both benched this season. We have wasted every FA period and First round pick for years! That’s why ur cupboards are bare. Starts at the top. Carr is an easy scapegoat, qb normally is. I do not think Carr is elite but when a market for qbs has been set you are stuck paying what that market says. Saying anything is better than Carr is just foolish. It starts at the top, hopefully we have a GM now who can stock those cupboards. Also winnings rosters are built through the draft, something we have been arguably the worst in the entire NFL at.[/quote]I missed the part where you told me who is playing QB next season?
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LayneStaley
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[quote=black soul post_id=1049557]Nope, what would be emotional is giving a guy with his actual TD/ Turnover production this past season and 0 playoff wins in 8 seasons a big contract that would make it difficult to build a great team around him, and believe that he would need a "great," team around him to get anywhere unless you really like this 8-8 and occasional WC loss season mediocrity.
What would not be emotional would be to actually consider trading him at the height of his trade value or letting him play out his lame duck year to see if he does well with McDaniels before committing a large money extension to him.
Simply disregarding his lack of success the past 8 seasons, ignoring his business decision guaranteed money years of 2017-2019 when the team gave him a fat contract and rationalizing that he just needs more of this and that etc. and being ok with giving him a fat extension would actually be the highly emotional decision.[/quote]I missed the part where you told me who is playing QB next season?
What would not be emotional would be to actually consider trading him at the height of his trade value or letting him play out his lame duck year to see if he does well with McDaniels before committing a large money extension to him.
Simply disregarding his lack of success the past 8 seasons, ignoring his business decision guaranteed money years of 2017-2019 when the team gave him a fat contract and rationalizing that he just needs more of this and that etc. and being ok with giving him a fat extension would actually be the highly emotional decision.[/quote]I missed the part where you told me who is playing QB next season?
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black soul
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[quote=LayneStaley post_id=1049560]I missed the part where you told me who is playing QB next season?[/quote]I'll make it even easier on you, pick a player that can throw for about 24 TD's, 13 Ints and have over 10 fumbles in a season and have 0 career postseason wins for less than the projected 30-40 mil a year it would cost for an extension for this Qb . Now go ahead and throw a dart at a random list of Qb's on an available FA list and tell me which one can't reasonably come to a comparable production level at a fraction of the cost plus extra cap space and draft picks to build the team, now go ahead and take your pick of the Qb's that could serve as a bridge Qb and you have your answer.
You could do the same exercise for the 2020 offseason, 2019 offseason etc. etc. . And then there's always this really crazy radical idea of actually drafting a Qb to develop in the meantime while you sign a bridge Qb at a low cost. To put this into perspective for you Jamies Winston threw for 14 TD's 3 int's in 7 games with a 5-2 record for 2.5 million dollars and he's available for example.
You could do the same exercise for the 2020 offseason, 2019 offseason etc. etc. . And then there's always this really crazy radical idea of actually drafting a Qb to develop in the meantime while you sign a bridge Qb at a low cost. To put this into perspective for you Jamies Winston threw for 14 TD's 3 int's in 7 games with a 5-2 record for 2.5 million dollars and he's available for example.
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LayneStaley
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8 seasons for Carr….
I feel bad for the guy. I woulda demanded a trade by now.
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raiders93
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[quote=Jeremyturner1976 post_id=1049526]We just need OBJ, Kupp, Von Miller, Aaron Donald, and Jalen Ramsey. Start signing them up.
Stafford also has always been a solid playoff QB. 6 TDs to 1 int, 97 passer rating for his 3 games. Carr 1 TD, 1 int, 69 passer rating, 54% completions.
So we will probably also need a lot more talent than the Rams had on this run. If we just add a top 5 run game we got this, oh yeah, and Derek can't fumble.
So basically the Joe Montana 49er's roster. Easy. Much easier than trying to improve the position right?
We have maybe 2 or 3 of the 22 players so far ... definitely that plan is going to work out. No chance we see lots of early playoff exits.[/quote]The idea that if we can just get a better QB we'll be more than a one and done playoff team at best… it’s wishful thinking. The teams you’re going to be competing against deeper into the playoffs all have loaded rosters and a good to great QB.
Not sure you’ve got staffords prior playoff stats right. From my quick research he had 5 total TDs, 3 INTs and 2 lost fumbles in his 3 playoff losses in Detroit. He is a great example of the idea that you need a really, really good team regardless of your QB.
Don’t get me wrong, staffords a really good QB but that just further emphasizes the fact that you need a loaded team. Stafford without much help had 3 playoff appearances in 10 years (where he started over 50% of games) and went 0-3 with as many turnovers as TDs in those games.
In one year with a loaded team he won a Super Bowl. Point being - you need the Rams/9ers/chiefs roster if you want to compete deep into the playoffs. Those rosters are who you’ll be competing against and There is no QB that will compensate for the kind of talent disparity between our roster and those ones.
Carr on a 2 year deal helps address the roster first. IMO that’s a good thing for any rookie QB in the future. You can do irreparable damage to a young QBs development if you’re not careful and let them take a shit kicking on a team they’ve got no chance with early in their career.
Stafford also has always been a solid playoff QB. 6 TDs to 1 int, 97 passer rating for his 3 games. Carr 1 TD, 1 int, 69 passer rating, 54% completions.
So we will probably also need a lot more talent than the Rams had on this run. If we just add a top 5 run game we got this, oh yeah, and Derek can't fumble.
So basically the Joe Montana 49er's roster. Easy. Much easier than trying to improve the position right?
We have maybe 2 or 3 of the 22 players so far ... definitely that plan is going to work out. No chance we see lots of early playoff exits.[/quote]The idea that if we can just get a better QB we'll be more than a one and done playoff team at best… it’s wishful thinking. The teams you’re going to be competing against deeper into the playoffs all have loaded rosters and a good to great QB.
Not sure you’ve got staffords prior playoff stats right. From my quick research he had 5 total TDs, 3 INTs and 2 lost fumbles in his 3 playoff losses in Detroit. He is a great example of the idea that you need a really, really good team regardless of your QB.
Don’t get me wrong, staffords a really good QB but that just further emphasizes the fact that you need a loaded team. Stafford without much help had 3 playoff appearances in 10 years (where he started over 50% of games) and went 0-3 with as many turnovers as TDs in those games.
In one year with a loaded team he won a Super Bowl. Point being - you need the Rams/9ers/chiefs roster if you want to compete deep into the playoffs. Those rosters are who you’ll be competing against and There is no QB that will compensate for the kind of talent disparity between our roster and those ones.
Carr on a 2 year deal helps address the roster first. IMO that’s a good thing for any rookie QB in the future. You can do irreparable damage to a young QBs development if you’re not careful and let them take a shit kicking on a team they’ve got no chance with early in their career.
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LayneStaley
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[quote=black soul post_id=1049561]I'll make it even easier on you, pick a player that can throw for about 24 TD's, 13 Ints and have over 10 fumbles in a season for less than the projected 30-40 mil a year it would cost for an extension for this Qb . Now go ahead and throw a dart at a random list of Qb's on an available FA list and tell me which one can't reasonably come close to that production level at a fraction of the cost plus extra cap space and draft picks, now go ahead and take your pick of any number of Qb's that could serve as a bridge Qb and you have your answer.
You could do the same exercise for the 2020 offseason, 2019 offseason etc. etc. . And then there's always this really crazy radical idea of actually drafting a Qb to develop in the meantime while you sign a bridge Qb at a low cost. To put this into perspective for you Jamies Winston threw for 14 TD's 3 int's in 7 games with a 5-2 record for 2.5 million dollars and he's available for example.[/quote]So ur answer is to sign Jamies Winston.
It might be funny just to watch the meltdowns in the Jamies Winston Sucks thread I guess, I’m guessing they will be more over the top than the Carr meltdowns. Fix the line, quit reaching in the draft, give McDaniels a chance. If JM wants Carr and your so positive it won’t work than I wouldn’t even get upset about this if I were you. Josh isn’t going anywhere for awhile and if he’s endorsing Carr all this complaining about Carr from people is pointless. It’s time to find ways to make the team around Carr better. Josh didn’t come here for a full tear down.
You could do the same exercise for the 2020 offseason, 2019 offseason etc. etc. . And then there's always this really crazy radical idea of actually drafting a Qb to develop in the meantime while you sign a bridge Qb at a low cost. To put this into perspective for you Jamies Winston threw for 14 TD's 3 int's in 7 games with a 5-2 record for 2.5 million dollars and he's available for example.[/quote]So ur answer is to sign Jamies Winston.
It might be funny just to watch the meltdowns in the Jamies Winston Sucks thread I guess, I’m guessing they will be more over the top than the Carr meltdowns. Fix the line, quit reaching in the draft, give McDaniels a chance. If JM wants Carr and your so positive it won’t work than I wouldn’t even get upset about this if I were you. Josh isn’t going anywhere for awhile and if he’s endorsing Carr all this complaining about Carr from people is pointless. It’s time to find ways to make the team around Carr better. Josh didn’t come here for a full tear down.
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black soul
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[quote=LayneStaley post_id=1049562]8 seasons for Carr….
I feel bad for the guy. I woulda demanded a trade by now.[/quote]Yea poor him, it's always everyone else's fault. Poor him, the term "coach killer,' applies to every Qb but him.
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black soul
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[quote=LayneStaley post_id=1049564]So ur answer is to sign Jamies Winston.
It might be funny just to watch the meltdowns in the Jamies Winston Sucks thread I guess, I’m guessing they will be more over the top than the Carr meltdowns. Fix the line, quit reaching in the draft, give McDaniels a chance. If JM wants Carr and your so positive it won’t work than I wouldn’t even get upset about this if I were you. Josh isn’t going anywhere for awhile and if he’s endorsing Carr all this complaining about Carr from people is pointless. It’s time to find ways to make the team around Carr better. Josh didn’t come here for a full tear down.[/quote]You simply don't seem to get it. Winston is not the answer, Mariota is not the answer, and any number of bridge Qb's is not the answer, what they are is serviceable and just as important much cheaper. The idea is to build a stronger team with the extra cap space and draft picks then draft a Qb that can be the answer unless the team wants to go all in on a marquee Qb in a trade.
What you don't get is signing this Qb to a 30-40 mil a year extension in an offseason where they do not need to is not the answer. He is not in the same tier as the elite Qb's that is worthy of that allotment of a team's salary cap in a division with Mahomes and Herbert on a rookie deal. A fat extension for this Qb is one of the worst answers and asking for prolonged mediocrity. 57-71 career record at 30-40 mil a year extension is the proposed answer for the team and I think it's stupid. Just like how Cincy fans probably feel about sticking with Dalton for so long was stupid or how many Vikings fans may feel about paying Cousins his salary is stupid who by the way arguably has had better production than this guy.
It might be funny just to watch the meltdowns in the Jamies Winston Sucks thread I guess, I’m guessing they will be more over the top than the Carr meltdowns. Fix the line, quit reaching in the draft, give McDaniels a chance. If JM wants Carr and your so positive it won’t work than I wouldn’t even get upset about this if I were you. Josh isn’t going anywhere for awhile and if he’s endorsing Carr all this complaining about Carr from people is pointless. It’s time to find ways to make the team around Carr better. Josh didn’t come here for a full tear down.[/quote]You simply don't seem to get it. Winston is not the answer, Mariota is not the answer, and any number of bridge Qb's is not the answer, what they are is serviceable and just as important much cheaper. The idea is to build a stronger team with the extra cap space and draft picks then draft a Qb that can be the answer unless the team wants to go all in on a marquee Qb in a trade.
What you don't get is signing this Qb to a 30-40 mil a year extension in an offseason where they do not need to is not the answer. He is not in the same tier as the elite Qb's that is worthy of that allotment of a team's salary cap in a division with Mahomes and Herbert on a rookie deal. A fat extension for this Qb is one of the worst answers and asking for prolonged mediocrity. 57-71 career record at 30-40 mil a year extension is the proposed answer for the team and I think it's stupid. Just like how Cincy fans probably feel about sticking with Dalton for so long was stupid or how many Vikings fans may feel about paying Cousins his salary is stupid who by the way arguably has had better production than this guy.
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Jeremyturner1976
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[quote=raiders93 post_id=1049563]The idea that if we can just get a better QB we'll be more than a one and done playoff team at best… it’s wishful thinking. The teams you’re going to be competing against deeper into the playoffs all have loaded rosters and a good to great QB.
Not sure you’ve got staffords prior playoff stats right. From my quick research he had 5 total TDs, 3 INTs and 2 lost fumbles in his 3 playoff losses in Detroit. He is a great example of the idea that you need a really, really good team regardless of your QB.
Don’t get me wrong, staffords a really good QB but that just further emphasizes the fact that you need a loaded team. Stafford without much help had 3 playoff appearances in 10 years (where he started over 50% of games) and went 0-3 with as many turnovers as TDs in those games.
In one year with a loaded team he won a Super Bowl. Point being - you need the Rams/9ers/chiefs roster if you want to compete deep into the playoffs. Those rosters are who you’ll be competing against and There is no QB that will compensate for the kind of talent disparity between our roster and those ones.
Carr on a 2 year deal helps address the roster first. IMO that’s a good thing for any rookie QB in the future. You can do irreparable damage to a young QBs development if you’re not careful and let them take a shit kicking on a team they’ve got no chance with early in their career.[/quote]Exactly man. He is on contract and franchisable. We are not an average QB away and if we had to, we could trade two firsts for a Stafford type if the rookie fails. The only losing strategy is to settle for having to build the Rams roster to win, like I said, we have three pieces right now that would make their roster imo (Crosby, Renfrow, Waller).
Subtracting an additional 15 million only makes this team weaker. Carr will not suddenly become a top 5 QB just because we are paying him like one.
If something develops then extend him. Even a contract with only two years guaranteed keeps us afloat.
I am not opposed to Carr, I am opposed to another 5 year 175 million dollar contract with 120+ guaranteed.
I don't want to become the Cowboys or Vikings, married to mediocrity. I want a team that is looking for more than .500.
We are honestly in a prime position to plan on drafting a rookie the year after next. Just keep the doors open for it, all I ask. 30 million helps us compete immediately.
Not sure you’ve got staffords prior playoff stats right. From my quick research he had 5 total TDs, 3 INTs and 2 lost fumbles in his 3 playoff losses in Detroit. He is a great example of the idea that you need a really, really good team regardless of your QB.
Don’t get me wrong, staffords a really good QB but that just further emphasizes the fact that you need a loaded team. Stafford without much help had 3 playoff appearances in 10 years (where he started over 50% of games) and went 0-3 with as many turnovers as TDs in those games.
In one year with a loaded team he won a Super Bowl. Point being - you need the Rams/9ers/chiefs roster if you want to compete deep into the playoffs. Those rosters are who you’ll be competing against and There is no QB that will compensate for the kind of talent disparity between our roster and those ones.
Carr on a 2 year deal helps address the roster first. IMO that’s a good thing for any rookie QB in the future. You can do irreparable damage to a young QBs development if you’re not careful and let them take a shit kicking on a team they’ve got no chance with early in their career.[/quote]Exactly man. He is on contract and franchisable. We are not an average QB away and if we had to, we could trade two firsts for a Stafford type if the rookie fails. The only losing strategy is to settle for having to build the Rams roster to win, like I said, we have three pieces right now that would make their roster imo (Crosby, Renfrow, Waller).
Subtracting an additional 15 million only makes this team weaker. Carr will not suddenly become a top 5 QB just because we are paying him like one.
If something develops then extend him. Even a contract with only two years guaranteed keeps us afloat.
I am not opposed to Carr, I am opposed to another 5 year 175 million dollar contract with 120+ guaranteed.
I don't want to become the Cowboys or Vikings, married to mediocrity. I want a team that is looking for more than .500.
We are honestly in a prime position to plan on drafting a rookie the year after next. Just keep the doors open for it, all I ask. 30 million helps us compete immediately.
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LayneStaley
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[quote=black soul post_id=1049565]Yea poor him, it's always everyone else's fault. Poor him, the term "coach killer,' applies to every Qb but him.[/quote]Coach Killer? What have any of these guys done since leaving Carr? Carr took Del Rio and a ST coordinator to the playoffs. Gruden was out of the game for 10 years, the other two aren’t even worth mentioning. I believe JM is by far the most relevant coach Carr has ever had. Im also shocked that you think with our FA and draft history that getting rid of Carr will lead us to some great rebuild. I hope Ziegler is the answer but he hasn’t proven anything in Vegas yet.
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Jeremyturner1976
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[quote=LayneStaley post_id=1049568]Coach Killer? What have any of these guys done since leaving Carr? Carr took Del Rio and a ST coordinator to the playoffs. Gruden was out of the game for 10 years, the other two aren’t even worth mentioning. I believe JM is by far the most relevant coach Carr has ever had. Im also shocked that you think with our FA and draft history that getting rid of Carr will lead us to some great rebuild. I hope Ziegler is the answer but he hasn’t proven anything in Vegas yet.[/quote]What part of your conversation requires signing Carr this offseason?
Again - he is on contract and franchisable in '23 as well. He is already here for two years and at a much lower price.
Why do we 'have to sign him this offseason'?
Again - he is on contract and franchisable in '23 as well. He is already here for two years and at a much lower price.
Why do we 'have to sign him this offseason'?
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black soul
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[quote=LayneStaley post_id=1049568]Coach Killer? What have any of these guys done since leaving Carr? Carr took Del Rio and a ST coordinator to the playoffs. Gruden was out of the game for 10 years, the other two aren’t even worth mentioning. I believe JM is by far the most relevant coach Carr has ever had. Im also shocked that you think with our FA and draft history that getting rid of Carr will lead us to some great rebuild. I hope Ziegler is the answer but he hasn’t proven anything in Vegas yet.[/quote]Take off the blinders and take a good look at how your guy played down the stretch in 2017 when the team was fighting for a playoff spot, 2019 and 2020 too. Now, if you can take off the blinders look at how he played in Cincy in the playoffs and the ending of the game. But yea, it's all about the coaches, it's all their fault.
Keep believing extending this guy with a fat contract is the answer. I don't think a full re-build is in order. Replacing a Qb of his production does not constitute a full tear down to me. That's the difference I'm looking at his actual production and career results rather than trying to convince myself he deserves a fat contract that would greatly hamper the team's ability to actually build a great team.
57-71 career record, 24 Td's/13 int's, over 10 fumbles, outplayed in a WC game and chokes at the end, yup that just screams give him a big contract extension when he's already under contract for next season....
Keep believing extending this guy with a fat contract is the answer. I don't think a full re-build is in order. Replacing a Qb of his production does not constitute a full tear down to me. That's the difference I'm looking at his actual production and career results rather than trying to convince myself he deserves a fat contract that would greatly hamper the team's ability to actually build a great team.
57-71 career record, 24 Td's/13 int's, over 10 fumbles, outplayed in a WC game and chokes at the end, yup that just screams give him a big contract extension when he's already under contract for next season....