Emo Andy Dalton after a trip to Sephora on Groundhog Day (Carr thread)

[RaiderandBulldog]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Raiders/stat ... 3878636548

[Xramfan]

[quote=heavyD post_id=1038883]Win/loss record is a team stat. .[/quote]Until it’s the 2 minute drill against prevent defenses? Is that when Carr has “ice in his veins”? And “carries the team”? (Until he doesn’t and then it’s a team game again)? Not necessarily quoting you but things I hear over and over.

Seems to me Carr often has solid opening drives and he’s solid in the 2 minute drill. It’s the other 50 or 55 minutes that make me nauseous. I said a few years ago and I’ll say it again, I do t believe Derek Carr keeps defensive coordinators up at night with worry.

[toobscruiser]

Carr’s offenses were always top 10 in the red zone except for 2016 when they were 13th. When Gruden came in they were never higher than 22nd. With competent playcalling he has proven to be a good red zone qb. We need not look further than that 4th down call. That was a perfect example of the last 4 years of red zone playcalling

[Xramfan]

[quote=Willmark post_id=1038894]Its because he can't answer it, best defense and (quite smart) to deny the existence of a QBs W/L record. Although I do see comeback wins posted by one of his biggest supporters after one happens, so which is it? Just pointing this out in general mind you.

Can't be this:
TD to INT ratio of less than 2 to 1 in 2021 (thereabouts) (23 TDs vs 13 INTs)
23 Total Passing TDs vs 27 turnovers in 2021
Averages around 1or 2 TDs a game with 3 being a rarity, 4 hardly ever and 5 never.
Doesn't run for TDs
Near the top of the all time fumble table for so few years in the league relatively speaking.

I'm all ears if someone has some sort of metric on what constitutes above average for Carr.[/quote]He’s an above average coach killer?
;)

[Xramfan]

[quote=toobscruiser post_id=1038901]Carr’s offenses were always top 10 in the red zone except for 2016 when they were 13th. When Gruden came in they were never higher than 22nd. With competent playcalling he has proven to be a good red zone qb. We need not look further than that 4th down call. That was a perfect example of the last 4 years of red zone playcalling[/quote]Are they “Carrs offenses” when they are top 10-15 but “Grudens offenses” when worse?

Seems to me it’s more about execution

[CWood24]

[quote=heavyD post_id=1038883]Win/loss record is a team stat. Herbert has been a lot better than his win/loss record would indicate.[/quote]If win loss is a team stat & you played in those games then we’ve lost those games then Win loss record would be a personal stat

Also if win loss record is a team stat then comeback win cant be a personal stat

Which one is it? We have to make a decision for the official excuse list

[raiders93]

[quote=signal post_id=1038864]Carr has, is and will always be an average QB. I would rather the franchise be smart and find a cheaper version of an average QB so they have the cap room to do as you say, improve other aspects of the team.

Do you really think Derek will sign a team friendly contract? He will again be asking for top dollar and I do fear that Mark will give it to him.[/quote]Problem is that if Carr is average… average QBs still cost a ton. Look at what guys like cousins, Dak or Goff signed for. You may save some money going with below average (bridgewater, brissett) but then how much further ahead are you if you’ve saved money by getting worse at the most important position?

I’d be surprised if Carr tried to hold the team hostage over a max deal though. He seems like a pretty genuine guy and values and priorities change with age and experience. Doesn’t strike me as a guy that is money hungry at this point. Strikes me as more of a sentimental guy that wants to win as a Raider. I could see him cutting us a bit of break

[toobscruiser]

[quote=Xramfan post_id=1038905]Are they “Carrs offenses” when they are top 10-15 but “Grudens offenses” when worse?

Seems to me it’s more about execution[/quote]Top ten every year until Gruden came along. Bottom 20 every year after. Pretty easy to see Gruden was a factor in the decline

[Attyla]

[quote=heavyD post_id=1038890]Pointless comparison. Joe was a 1st overall pick and has generational potential. Unless you want to go back to the perennial 4-12 days unearthing a QB like that in the draft isn't an option.[/quote]not pointless given your comments about his rankings. You were implying that Carr is a top 20 guy all time and that half the league would kill to have him. Comparing a veteran to a second year top pick coming of major knee surgery was actually quite pointed.

[Willmark]

[quote=Xramfan post_id=1038905]Are they “Carrs offenses” when they are top 10-15 but “Grudens offenses” when worse? [/quote]Its the same argument as this: "When we win its a Carr W, when we lose? Loses are a team sport.

Otherwise known as "heads I win, tails you lose" which is in vogue with some here. Or put another way its a handy way of being able to deflect blame and never attribute a lost to Carr.

Take the first Cincy game, Carr literally LOST the game with one INT and fumble to seal it.

[signal]

[quote=raiders93 post_id=1038910]Problem is that if Carr is average… average QBs still cost a ton. Look at what guys like cousins, Dak or Goff signed for. You may save some money going with below average (bridgewater, brissett) but then how much further ahead are you if you’ve saved money by getting worse at the most important position?

I’d be surprised if Carr tried to hold the team hostage over a max deal though. He seems like a pretty genuine guy and values and priorities change with age and experience. Doesn’t strike me as a guy that is money hungry at this point. Strikes me as more of a sentimental guy that wants to win as a Raider. I could see him cutting us a bit of break[/quote]Last time he signed a contract, it was at the time the most expensive contract. You could be right and he might decide to sign for $20 million a year or something. But, something tells me, the opposite will occur and the number will be between 37 and 40. Hope I am wrong.

[Willmark]

[quote=Attyla post_id=1038913]not pointless given your comments about his rankings. You were implying that Carr is a top 20 guy all time and that half the league would kill to have him. Comparing a veteran to a second year top pick coming of major knee surgery was actually quite pointed.[/quote]Since he wont answer me, I'll reply to you with this bit of information:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/hof/hofm_QB.htm

Lets use this for some sort of metric for discussion then, aka what constitutes average? Or as is being claimed "above average" with nothing other than a statement to back it up.

Looking at this lets say its 100% valid for the sake of argument: an average HoF QB ranks at 104. So an average QB should be what, half that? Aka a score of 52.

Derek Carr?
34.33

So that's actually below average.

Granted not scientific but at least that's something other than a blanket statement with nothing to back it up.

[chucker]

[quote=signal post_id=1038917]Last time he signed a contract, it was at the time the most expensive contract. You could be right and he might decide to sign for $20 million a year or something. But, something tells me, the opposite will occur and the number will be between 37 and 40. Hope I am wrong.[/quote]I don't think his agent will let him sign anything under $35 a year, so I'm with you. And I do not think we should give him that. Barring a better immediate QB option, just have him play out his deal at $20 million, but also at least take a swing at getting the future QB.

[Willmark]

[quote=chucker post_id=1038923]Barring a better immediate QB option, just have him play out his deal at $20 million, but also at least take a swing at getting the future QB.[/quote]As it stands right now this is the option. Not sure its the best option but under no circumstances should we extend him this year. We have to draft someone this year, if there is "the guy" and we have to give up picks for him? Do it.

Hope against hope in Year 9 he gets it and lights it up. Then again I'm sure I was typing the same thing last year at this time.

[chucker]

[quote=Willmark post_id=1038924]As it stands right now this is the option. Not sure its the best option but under no circumstances should we extend him this year. We have to draft someone this year, if there is "the guy" and we have to give up picks for him? Do it.

Hope against hope in Year 9 he gets it and lights it up. Then again I'm sure I was typing the same thing last year at this time.[/quote]Even us "haters" want him to be great. He just isn't. I don't know about you, but I was a real believer from 2014-2016 as I thought he was an ascending talent who could take it to the elite level, and play by play he wore me down to where I'm at now. I'm man enough to admit I was an idiot.

[toobscruiser]

[quote=chucker post_id=1038928]Even us "haters" want him to be great. He just isn't. I don't know about you, but I was a real believer from 2014-2016 as I thought he was an ascending talent who could take it to the elite level, and play by play he wore me down to where I'm at now. I'm man enough to admit I was an idiot.[/quote]Was?