Hall of Fame Makes Significant Changes

[Atlasffa]

[Attyla]

I could say the sky is blue and some would argue that it is light blue.

[Willmark]

I have to disagree; Jim Kelly Buffalo Bills were a pretty dominating team; for those four Super Bowl years; Kelly pretty much was one of the best QB in the NFL at that time; and you gotta remember that he went to USFL first for few years I think;

You spelled Joe Montana wrong.Then Boomer, Young, Moon, Elway, and a bunch before Kelly enters the conversation

Don't believe me that Kelly wasn't in the upper tier? Take Darth Hoodie's opinion of Kelly:
In his book The Education of a Coach, David Halberstam wrote that one of defensive coordinator Bill Belichick's specific plans to combat the Bills involved convincing his defense (who had been the best unit against the run in the NFL that season) that they would win the game if Thurman Thomas ran for more than 100 yards. Belichick also felt that Jim Kelly was not as good at reading defenses as some other elite quarterbacks were (for example, Joe Montana), and that Kelly tended to "freeze" what he was seeing from a series and then use that information on the next one, which meant the Giants could be a step ahead of him all game if they alternated their cover plans from drive to drive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bow ... ork_Giants

And while wiki, the actual game along with the run first offense of the Giants proved this out vs the Bills.

And I can't stand Darth Hoodie but he was a hell of a Defensive Coordinator.

[Willmark]

I believe at the time of retirement Tarkenton held a lot of the all time QB records, passing yards, TD's, wins, rushing yards. That seems to be HOF worthy after the 5 year wait.

This is correct in every particular.

[raidersince63]

Darth Hoodie doesn't get a HOF vote and neither do we and the other poster didn't misspell anything...he said Kelly was "one of the best".

[Willmark]

Darth Hoodie doesn't get a HOF vote and neither do we and the other poster didn't misspell anything...he said Kelly was "one of the best".

I'll rely on his opinion over anyone on this site as to what constitutes elite QB play. His defensive plan in limiting the "vaunted" K-Gun offense to 19 points was proved correct.

[Reno Hightower]

I'll rely on his opinion over anyone on this site as to what constitutes elite QB play. His defensive plan in limiting the "vaunted" K-Gun offense to 19 points was proved correct.

You think that statement (Billechick's) would have seen the light of day had Norwood converted? In fairness, the Hoodie made life rough for a lot of good QB's in the post season. He did enough as a defensive coordinator to have his ticket punched to Canton.

His defensive game plans that contained both the K-Gun and Greatest Show on turf were nothing short of brilliant.

[raidersince63]

I'll rely on his opinion over anyone on this site as to what constitutes elite QB play. His defensive plan in limiting the "vaunted" K-Gun offense to 19 points was proved correct.

Perfect, I'll throw away the facts now because Billechick is always right about everything.

[Willmark]

You think that statement (Billechick's) would have seen the light of day had Norwood converted? In fairness, the Hoodie made life rough for a lot of good QB's in the post season. He did enough as a defensive coordinator to have his ticket punched to Canton.

Hard to say.

The Bills were only in the game because of Thurman Thomas who was a beast. The TOP was so tilted in the Giants favor that when The Bills were on Offense they were limited by Kelly's inability to figure out the pass coverage. And when he did? Reed remarked after the game that he had never been hit so hard in his life.

Kelly's SB stats:
4 Super Bowl appearances
0 wins
4 losses

Kelly threw 0 TDs and 0 INTs in Super Bowl XXV, 2 TDs and 4 INTs in XXVI, 0 TD and 2 INT in XXVII, and 0 TD and 1 INT in XXVIII.
EDITED: for correct Kelly stats, holy crap worse than I thought. Total 2 TDs 7 INTs in four Super Bowls. Elite!

Another handy feature of the pro-football stat site is the similar player feature (its about half way down), while not perfect it does normalize and show QBs that fall in a similar range: its interesting to note; here are the careers that are closest to size and shape to Kelly: Kirk Cousins, Mark Brunell, Tony Romo, Donovan McNabb, Drew Bledsoe, Derek Carr, Steve McNair, Terry Bradshaw*, John Hadl, Troy Aikman*

The asterisks mean HOF. IMO Aikman is borderline at best. Bradshaw? Likewise he has had questions is entire career and after. Yes he won four super bowls, but the counter is Kelly lost four.

[raidersince63]

You think that statement (Billechick's) would have seen the light of day had Norwood converted? In fairness, the Hoodie made life rough for a lot of good QB's in the post season. He did enough as a defensive coordinator to have his ticket punched to Canton.

His defensive game plans that contained both the K-Gun and Greatest Show on turf were nothing short of brilliant.

Bill was definitely a very good defensive coach and always seemed to find a way to neutralize the opponents best player and it worked.

[Willmark]

Perfect, I'll throw away the facts now because Billechick is always right about everything.

Cool strawman, where was it said that Billechick was right about everything?

[raidersince63]

Cool strawman, where was it said that Billechick was right about everything?

Do you know what sarcasm is?...evidently not. But do you really believe he's is always right?

You did say, "I'll rely on his opinion over anyone on this site as to what constitutes elite QB play."

[Willmark]

Do you know what sarcasm is?

I'm very fond of sarcasm.

...evidently not.

See above

But do you really believe he's is always right?

Why would I answer a point I did not make, you did.

You did say, "I'll rely on his opinion over anyone on this site as to what constitutes elite QB play."

In the realm of Defensive Coordinators he has more knowledge than anyone here. Hence my comment

[raidersince63]

I'm very fond of sarcasm.


See above


Why would I answer a point I did not make, you did.


In the realm of Defensive Coordinators he has more knowledge than anyone here. Hence my comment

Wow...nice dodge...one more time he does not have a HOF vote...so it's moot.

[Willmark]

Wow...nice dodge...one more time he does not have a HOF vote...so it's moot.

Nice refusal to engage in the point of the argument but to be expected.

[Reno Hightower]

Hard to say.

The Bills were only in the game because of Thurman Thomas who was a beast. The TOP was so tilted in the Giants favor that when The Bills were on Offense they were limited by Kelly's inability to figure out the pass coverage. And when he did? Reed remarked after the game that he had never been hit so hard in his life.

Kelly's SB stats:
4 Super Bowl appearances
0 wins
4 losses

Kelly threw 0 TDs and 0 INTs in Super Bowl XXV, 2 TDs and 4 INTs in XXVI, 0 TD and 2 INT in XXVII, and 0 TD and 1 INT in XXVIII.
EDITED: for correct Kelly stats, holy crap worse than I thought. Total 2 TDs 7 INTs in four Super Bowls. Elite!

Another handy feature of the pro-football stat site is the similar player feature (its about half way down), while not perfect it does normalize and show QBs that fall in a similar range: its interesting to note; here are the careers that are closest to size and shape to Kelly: Kirk Cousins, Mark Brunell, Tony Romo, Donovan McNabb, Drew Bledsoe, Derek Carr, Steve McNair, Terry Bradshaw*, John Hadl, Troy Aikman*

The asterisks mean HOF. IMO Aikman is borderline at best. Bradshaw? Likewise he has had questions is entire career and after. Yes he won four super bowls, but the counter is Kelly lost four.

Bradshaw was like Plunkett. He couldn't care less about completion percentages or passer rating. It was all about hitting the big throws. Pressure passing. As I have gotten older I have come to appreciate this QB philosophy more. I wish the NFL would come up with metrics that emphasized that more in a stat happy passing era. I mean baseball has its deadfall era and judges players within that context.

I will say this, I think most QB's in Canton deserve to be there but there are QB's that were left out despite being better than many wearing gold blazers. Ken Anderson comes to mind and I believe a better argument can be raised for Jim Plunkett than for some that are enshrined.